We were joined in Tel-Aviv by Gideon Levy, a journalist for the Israeli newspaper Haaretz.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: I think the outside world understands why Israel wanted to hit back at Hamas and to defend itself. What people find difficult to understand is this apparent turning of a blind eye to terrible civilian suffering. Can you explain it?

Gideon Levy: Yes, you cannot commit those atrocities, those crimes, and look at the reality and look at the truth. So Israel chose, as usual, the way of denying, the way of breaking away. And the Israeli media is the biggest collaborator. Because, as you know by now, Israeli media hardly shows Gaza to the Israelis, not to bother them, not to make them ask, what are we doing? Do we have the moral right to do what we are doing? So everyone is happy. Israelis don’t know. They don’t want to know. The world is, in any case, anti-Semitic. So it’s your fault, not ours. And everyone lives in peace. And children are killed and massacred – dozens a day.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: What do you think is happening to Israel’s reputation around the world as this goes on day by day?

Gideon Levy: First of all, it’s my last concern. My concern is what is happening in Gaza, and in Gaza there is a bloodbath. In Gaza, there is something that should stop yesterday, today. I mean, the real sufferer is there. Israel’s image, you know, is already turning into a pariah state, but I don’t see yet the governments taking any measures toward Israel. I mean the world was very effective with South Africa at the time, with Russia after the invasion of Ukraine. When it comes to Israel, the world takes its time, and I don’t see any real measures, a lot of talkings. It’s not very pleasant to be an Israeli right now, rightly so, but I don’t see sanctions in the air.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: I mean, but there doesn’t appear to be an opposition leader who has a different plan?

Gideon Levy: Absolutely. This we have to understand once and for all, because people think that if we only get rid of Netanyahu, Israel will turn into a paradise. So I have news for you. Netanyahu should go. But there is no alternative because they all agree on the basic things. No candidate is against the apartheid, no candidate is against occupation. No candidate even says clearly that he will stop the war because of the suffering of the Palestinian people, not because of deals or hostages. The main reason to stop this war is the suffering of 2.3 million people.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: The Palestinians say that Israel has moved to the right. Precisely – that Netanyahu isn’t the problem, the problem is Israel. You seem to be agreeing with that.

Gideon Levy: Absolutely, and I keep on saying it and therefore replacing Netanyahu will not be the solution – because of what happened to the Israeli society ever since the 7th October, namely that we have now the right to do whatever we want. Namely that we don’t believe in any Palestinian, namely that all Gaza, there is no one who is innocent and they all deserve everything. This is in the grassroots, not Netanyahu. This is the shift that Israel went, and I’m afraid it’s irreversible.

Krishnan Guru-Murthy: But we are seeing a lot of speculation and excitement that Netanyahu could meet a political end very soon. There’s a vote next week. If he loses it, and it looks like he’s losing a key part of his coalition, he could be forced into an early election. What you’re saying is even if that happens, don’t expect change.

Gideon Levy: No, don’t expect real change, there will be changes. I don’t want to say there will be no difference. There will be changes. Things will be more normal, more… I don’t want to stay moral, but less crimes will be committed. But don’t expect a real solution because there is no candidate who is courageous enough to go for real solutions.